>Would mysticism exist without the presence of the flesh?
Blessed souls can enjoy the beatific vision without a body, so yes. Mysticism is primarily spiritual, although not exclusively—IIRC one of the Psalms involves David writing about how his very flesh rejoices in the lord.
And I'm not sure if self-flagellation has been suppressed... St. Pope John Paul II had a discipline which he'd beat himself with, and members of Opus Dei do stuff like that to this day.
But even what is good is not always prudent. American bishops probably tried to suppress the practice because they were worried about the penitentes alienating the WASPS through a practice which admittedly strikes the modern mind as medieval in the worst way, and deeply retrograde. But while jarring (like the veneration of bones), the practice, when not exaggerated, can be a good aid to a person's holiness. Not that I would know from personal experience. But too many saints have sworn by it for it to be a bad thing (not to mention the precedent in scripture: 1 Cor 9:27). Not that it's mandatory either. If I'm not mistaken, the practice is basically unheard of in eastern Christianity (they prefer to fast).
Good ol’ fashioned lived experience. I was born and raised Catholic in New Mexico. I moved back here a couple years ago and have connected more deeply to the spiritualist movement in the north.
I'm so seduced by this windowless Moradas building typology and the fact that its adobe. I'm very glad to have learnt about this. I'm also really intrigued by the self-harm mysticism... it's very... idk how to say this... 'birth-and-death-indexing? ... it's like you start life being cut from your mother and your belly button is presumably a person's first, kinda life-marking scar, and then you end your life and go under ground... it seems paralleled by this tradition.
Interesting take on "birth-death-indexing"! Especially because, yeah, the moradas are built using mud and also the ceremonial space is slightly underground. This is actually a mark of syncretism with Pueblo kivas, which are ceremonial spaces that are built out underground used by the indigenous tribes native to NM. I bet you'd really love the architectural history and design of Spanish colonial New Mexico. Some of the oldest churches out here (all built in the 17th and 18th centuries) were actually built by the priests who were sent out here, but the Spanish king didn't give them any resources or architects to build. They designed the churches from memory and used Native American labor, as well as relied on the Pueblo people's adobe knowledge and methods.
>Would mysticism exist without the presence of the flesh?
Blessed souls can enjoy the beatific vision without a body, so yes. Mysticism is primarily spiritual, although not exclusively—IIRC one of the Psalms involves David writing about how his very flesh rejoices in the lord.
And I'm not sure if self-flagellation has been suppressed... St. Pope John Paul II had a discipline which he'd beat himself with, and members of Opus Dei do stuff like that to this day.
But even what is good is not always prudent. American bishops probably tried to suppress the practice because they were worried about the penitentes alienating the WASPS through a practice which admittedly strikes the modern mind as medieval in the worst way, and deeply retrograde. But while jarring (like the veneration of bones), the practice, when not exaggerated, can be a good aid to a person's holiness. Not that I would know from personal experience. But too many saints have sworn by it for it to be a bad thing (not to mention the precedent in scripture: 1 Cor 9:27). Not that it's mandatory either. If I'm not mistaken, the practice is basically unheard of in eastern Christianity (they prefer to fast).
Very cool! Where did you learn about this?
Good ol’ fashioned lived experience. I was born and raised Catholic in New Mexico. I moved back here a couple years ago and have connected more deeply to the spiritualist movement in the north.
I'm so seduced by this windowless Moradas building typology and the fact that its adobe. I'm very glad to have learnt about this. I'm also really intrigued by the self-harm mysticism... it's very... idk how to say this... 'birth-and-death-indexing? ... it's like you start life being cut from your mother and your belly button is presumably a person's first, kinda life-marking scar, and then you end your life and go under ground... it seems paralleled by this tradition.
Interesting take on "birth-death-indexing"! Especially because, yeah, the moradas are built using mud and also the ceremonial space is slightly underground. This is actually a mark of syncretism with Pueblo kivas, which are ceremonial spaces that are built out underground used by the indigenous tribes native to NM. I bet you'd really love the architectural history and design of Spanish colonial New Mexico. Some of the oldest churches out here (all built in the 17th and 18th centuries) were actually built by the priests who were sent out here, but the Spanish king didn't give them any resources or architects to build. They designed the churches from memory and used Native American labor, as well as relied on the Pueblo people's adobe knowledge and methods.